During his Donald Trump's first term as president a psychologist and a psychiatrist (among others) raised the question of whether Donald Trump has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. One said yes, the other said no.
The psychologist who said yes didn't hold anything back:
“Trump suffers from malignant narcissism, a diagnosis far more toxic and dangerous than mere narcissistic personality disorder because it combines narcissism with three other severely pathological components: paranoia, sociopathy, and sadism. When combined, this perfect storm of psychopathology defines the ‘quintessence of evil,’ according to Fromm, the closest thing psychiatry has to describing a true human monster.”
The psychiatrist who said no said this:
"I wrote the criteria [in the DSM-IV] that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn’t meet them. He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose a mental disorder.”
Not a fan of Donald Trump, he added:
“Psychiatric name-calling is a misguided way of countering Mr. Trump’s attack on democracy. He can, and should, be appropriately denounced for his ignorance, incompetence, impulsivity, and pursuit of dictatorial powers.”
I agree with the psychiatrist and disagree with the psychologist. Diagnosing narcissism in others seems to me a difficult thing to do, especially when diagnosing it as a mental illness. It's too easy to be misled by our prejudices and beliefs. We can only be subjective, as there is no objective measure. Like all personality traits, narcissism is not a binary thing. We all have some of the narcissist in us. Labeling others narcissists is more name-calling than diagnostic.
Self-reflection on narcissism, on the other hand, I think is good. I'm convinced that I'm much more narcissistic than the average person, rather like Ebenezer Scrooge, pre ghosts' visits. I have long tried to remedy that. I'm not sure it's done much good -- I'm certainly no post-ghosts Scrooge -- but I'm sure it's done some. I'm also sure that it is not a mental illness for me, just a fault like many others.
Well, I cannot comment on your self-evaluation but I am interested in reading more about the former president’s one. Can you please direct me towards the source? Thank you.
John Gartner, “DEFCON 2: Nuclear Risk Is Rising as Donald Trump Goes Downhill,” in Rocket Man: Nuclear Madness and the Mind of Donald Trump, ed. John Gartner, Steven Buser, and Leonard Cruz (Asheville, NC: Chiron Publications, 2018), 29-30. (which I have not read but saw a sneak peek of pages on Amazon)
One does not have to look at Trump's mental condition to diagnose narcissism . His overt behaviors speak volumes. Mardy, this morning's blog screams "Trump." I tip my hat to you for your restraint.
here's some quotes I'm taking from another source I get regularly, Rob Henderson:
moral grandstanding, a concept which has been discussed in various papers and in a book by Justin Tosi and Brandon Warmke. Their definition of grandstanding is “The use of public moral discourse for self-promotion and status attainment.”
A couple of sample items that measure grandstanding:
“When I share my moral/political beliefs, I do so to show people who disagree with me that I am better than them.”
“When I share my moral political beliefs, I do so in the hope that people different than me will feel ashamed of their beliefs.”...
Grandstanding has a strong statistical correlation with both status seeking and narcissism.
Yikes! Lots to think about tonight! Thank you!
During his Donald Trump's first term as president a psychologist and a psychiatrist (among others) raised the question of whether Donald Trump has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. One said yes, the other said no.
The psychologist who said yes didn't hold anything back:
“Trump suffers from malignant narcissism, a diagnosis far more toxic and dangerous than mere narcissistic personality disorder because it combines narcissism with three other severely pathological components: paranoia, sociopathy, and sadism. When combined, this perfect storm of psychopathology defines the ‘quintessence of evil,’ according to Fromm, the closest thing psychiatry has to describing a true human monster.”
The psychiatrist who said no said this:
"I wrote the criteria [in the DSM-IV] that define this disorder, and Mr. Trump doesn’t meet them. He may be a world-class narcissist, but this doesn’t make him mentally ill, because he does not suffer from the distress and impairment required to diagnose a mental disorder.”
Not a fan of Donald Trump, he added:
“Psychiatric name-calling is a misguided way of countering Mr. Trump’s attack on democracy. He can, and should, be appropriately denounced for his ignorance, incompetence, impulsivity, and pursuit of dictatorial powers.”
I agree with the psychiatrist and disagree with the psychologist. Diagnosing narcissism in others seems to me a difficult thing to do, especially when diagnosing it as a mental illness. It's too easy to be misled by our prejudices and beliefs. We can only be subjective, as there is no objective measure. Like all personality traits, narcissism is not a binary thing. We all have some of the narcissist in us. Labeling others narcissists is more name-calling than diagnostic.
Self-reflection on narcissism, on the other hand, I think is good. I'm convinced that I'm much more narcissistic than the average person, rather like Ebenezer Scrooge, pre ghosts' visits. I have long tried to remedy that. I'm not sure it's done much good -- I'm certainly no post-ghosts Scrooge -- but I'm sure it's done some. I'm also sure that it is not a mental illness for me, just a fault like many others.
Well, I cannot comment on your self-evaluation but I am interested in reading more about the former president’s one. Can you please direct me towards the source? Thank you.
Certainly.
This 2019 article makes the comparison between the two views: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201903/malignant-narcissism-does-the-president-really
It draws on these two sources:
John Gartner, “DEFCON 2: Nuclear Risk Is Rising as Donald Trump Goes Downhill,” in Rocket Man: Nuclear Madness and the Mind of Donald Trump, ed. John Gartner, Steven Buser, and Leonard Cruz (Asheville, NC: Chiron Publications, 2018), 29-30. (which I have not read but saw a sneak peek of pages on Amazon)
Allen Frances, "An Eminent Psychiatrist Demurs on Trump's Mental State," Letters to the Editor, The New York Times, February 14, 2017. (which is here: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/opinion/an-eminent-psychiatrist-demurs-on-trumps-mental-state.html?unlocked_article_code=1.dU0.TeGy.koI_5ZjwPf1k&smid=url-share
Thanks for the information. I’ll follow up on these.
Thanks for sharing the links, John.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and reflections, John.
Well done here Mardy. A fascinating collection. Thank you, John.
Thanks for your kind words, my friend.
I'll quote you: “Yes, it is possible to have a relationship with a narcissist, but never a healthy one.”
my PS: Get out when the feelings or thoughts of "I'm confused", or being on a roller-coaster arise. There's health on the other side.
Good point!
Thanks, D. J., it's always nice to be quoted!
One does not have to look at Trump's mental condition to diagnose narcissism . His overt behaviors speak volumes. Mardy, this morning's blog screams "Trump." I tip my hat to you for your restraint.
I'm no Trump fan BUT (that word) look at the majority of life time politicians.
Yes, it's a profession filled with narcissists.
Thanks, Mike. Always nice to hear from you.
But what can we make of the idolaters?
Good question!
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ANNOUNCES ITS PLATFORM FOR THE NEXT ELECTION. ITS MAJOR IDEAS REFLECT THE MAJOR VALUES OF THE MAGA VOTERS:
A pathological need to be admired or respected;
A hypersensitivity to minor or unintended slights;
A tendency to respond to criticism with anger, or even rage;
A marked—and in extreme cases, a chilling—lack of empathy;
A willingness to mislead, “gaslight,” or even lie when challenged;
An unwillingness to admit to—much less apologize for—mistakes;
A preoccupation with self to the point of complete self-absorption;
An inability or unwillingness to engage in thoughtful introspection;
A sense of entitlement that leads them to believe they deserve special treatment or that normal rules of conduct don’t apply to them.
The Democratic party announced the same - a life-time politician who doesn't know when to quit.
As I stated above I'm no Trump fan. Biden meets all the same qualifications as the above list.
Thanks for weighing in, D.J.
That list looks familiar!
here's some quotes I'm taking from another source I get regularly, Rob Henderson:
moral grandstanding, a concept which has been discussed in various papers and in a book by Justin Tosi and Brandon Warmke. Their definition of grandstanding is “The use of public moral discourse for self-promotion and status attainment.”
A couple of sample items that measure grandstanding:
“When I share my moral/political beliefs, I do so to show people who disagree with me that I am better than them.”
“When I share my moral political beliefs, I do so in the hope that people different than me will feel ashamed of their beliefs.”...
Grandstanding has a strong statistical correlation with both status seeking and narcissism.
Are you suggesting that I was doing some "moral grandstanding" in my post?